October 6, 2005
Some developers posted in my blog talkback that Delphi is so behind VS and will never catch up. I disagree...
There have been many posts following the release of the Delphi Roadmap (see the original slide here) and my post about the Delphi Passion... and although I don't want to start a debate I really want to tell you why I disagree with some of the posters, even though I can understand their point of view. For example, see this post by Eric.
If you think that there is nothing ouside of .NET, that 1.1 is so bad that migrating to 2.0 today is a must, that Microsoft is devoted to developers...than go ahead and switch to VS. But I don't buy it, sorry.
It is certainly true that MS has infinite more R&D resources than Borland. But this was true also when Borland did Delphi 1, when it did Turbo Pascal 1.0, when it made Sidekick or Quattro... This was true of Google, when it started. Consider, that not all MS R&D resource are oriented to developers and that .NET has a clear agenda: make users upgrade their OS version. Consider also that MS spends a fraction of the revenues on R&D, contrary to Borland!
I also question the need to be on the verge of technology. With most client/server development still on Win32 (and VB6, not Delphi!) I don't see the need to embrace the latest MS technology the same day it is released. Delphi 2 was almost a year behind Windows 95, which introduced Win32 to the masses. So what? Delphi developer were able to migrate Win16 to Win32 project faster than many others. Delphi COM support was so late (but so great). Delphi for .NET has been very late, was not an issue for me and most of the developes I know. .NET 2.0 support will come faster than those, and will come as the framework becomes solid and widespread (which is still not true for 1.0 and/or 1.1).
Another element I want to underline is that even though the release version of Delphi 2005 was very shaky, the product is now fully usable. I use it for Win32 / .NET / CF (thanks to Jeremy North) / Kylix (with CrossKylix or directly) development. It crashed once over the last couple of weeks (plus 2 times as I was working with Win32 class helpers at EKON!). I do have all patches, disabled the heavy stuff, and so on. But although there are issues with the OTA and in other areas saying the product is unusable is absolutely not true, at least for my experience.
So why use Delphi if you want crossplatform? You have Kylix still working OK for server side developent (this blog runs on Kylix) and Mono available if you pick .NET. I fully agree that an updated Kylix compiler will be a great thing. I don't see how VS or C# can be better!
Why use Delphi in general? It provides more options and more flexibility than the current MS offering. For example, you have ECO, better support for non-MS databases (you know, there are some out there), both VCL and WinForms, ASP.NET and also other Web technologies: you indeed have more options! The other obvious reason is Win32 support. It is and will be relevant for some years ahead. Killing it because you have a OS agenda is not the developer's and user's best interest, IMHO.
Finally, I totally disagree with the claim that the Delphi language has been "decimated" or "hacked" for .NET compatibility. On the contrary, Borland has done an excellent and unparalled job in adopting the new paradigm while maintaining a clean and highly compatible language. I don't see anyone else offering the same.
My impression is that Delphi is not the trenches, is not "years behind", provides some distinctive advantages over the competition, is even leading in .NET on some language features (virtual constructors, to single out one I really like and would miss in C#), and is more open to developer's needs. Having said this... I'm ducking in my trench, ready for a flow of bullets, ahem, critical posts...
posted by
marcocantu @ 0:39AM | 16 Comments
[0 Pending]
16 Comments
Delphi in the Trenches?
mi biggest issue with Delphi 8/2005 is the lack of
quality (sure Delphi 2005 is usable now after how
many months?), so many bugs that I'm completly sure
they could've catched if they had tested a little bit
more
and this has caused many companies to turn away from
Borland products (probably forever), and this takes
many developers on it's way
Comment by BTX on October 6, 02:30
Delphi in the Trenches?
I for agree with Marco. Delphi is not behind but very
much with it. Not everything is .NET and not all
customers are running beta versions of Vista. Win32
still plays an important roll. As a matter of fact, I
wrote an ISAPI filter using Delphi for a customer last
month. I for one am very happy with the Delphi
Roadmap, and it is right on target for my needs and
the needs of my customers.
As for the stability of Delphi 2005, I admit I had
problems with it in the beginning but I've not
experienced a crash with it in quiet some time. On
the other hand, VS.NET 2003 crashed on me a few weeks
ago when I tried compiling a string constant in C#
code. See my blog for the details
(http://www.thecave.com/archive/2005/09/19/discovered_constant_bug_in_vsnet_2003.aspx).
Note the same C# code that crashes VS.NET 2003 does
NOT crash the Delphi IDE.
Comment by Kirby Turner
[http://www.thecave.com]
on October 6, 02:40
Delphi in the Trenches?
Well this will not be a bullet against you, but a
brother in arms. Options is the key, being the only
development tool in the .Net and now win32 world out
of MS give us a very strategic position to deal with
other technologies (databases: ORACLE, frameworks:
Java COM interoperability: Win32 using .Net, etc.).
What don't like ASP.Net, need to do something the RAD
way check Intraweb, like UML? TOGETHER, want some ECO?
The list keeps growing, Delphi is in a better position
than before, we can pick what to offer went to offer,
MS needs to fight too many fronts, and it is trying
to cover many fronts at once. We will see the results
of this.
Cheers comrad, bring them on! :)
Comment by Esteban Pacheco
[http://estebanp.blogspot.com]
on October 6, 05:15
Best Delphi Blog Post Ever
Marco, a level headed, well reasoned, extremely
accurate, realistic assessment of the IDE and
development situation. Bravo!!!
Comment by Kyle A. Miller
[http://www.millerdevelopment.info]
on October 6, 07:22
Delphi in the Trenches?
I agree with most of your points of view. However,
there seems to be a few Delphi releases we could
have managed without. Delphi 4 was one of them, and
Delphi 2005 seems to be the other. Borland will
someday kill Delphi if they keep rushing immature
products to the market.
At the moment Delphi 7 and CrossKylix keeps me happy
while waiting for yet another Delphi 2005 patch.
By the way, thanks for your excellent Mastering
Delphi series.
Comment by henry-ri@online.no
[]
on October 6, 10:06
Delphi in the Trenches?
This discussion with VS Developers has been there
since VB3 and Delphi 1. Many of the VS Developers I
have known, laught about Delphi, and claim that VS is
the best Developer Platform in the Market. But do you
know why they decide to Develop with VS ?, not because
it is better, just because MS is behind the product,
they feel secure as MS is a strong company.
But when we have to talk about facts, then they mouths
keep shut. Once I showed one of these VS developers a
little bit Delphi. He got shocked with the TTable and
the Fields Editor... :-)) "So easy is this with
Delphi?" he asked. :-))
Comment by Albert Research
[http://albertresearch.blogspot.com]
on October 6, 11:41
Delphi in the Trenches?
> It provides more options and more flexibility than
the current MS offering.
This is the crux of it. All other points aside,
Borland and Delphi give me more options to do things
on my terms, and that makes them the absolute best
business decision. At least for me.
I'm not bashing Microsoft or .Net. I've used VS2003
and am using VS2005 now (some pretty snazzy stuff in
there). At best, they're still only partial solutions.
I'm also not blindly praising Borland. They really
need to get their collective act together, which I
think they are. They are still the best bang for my
buck. By far.
Great post.
Comment by Bruce McGee on October 6, 14:54
Delphi in the Trenches?
Marco, don't you think, that main problem of Delphi
is Borland's heritage as dying company? Every time
I'm talking about new Delphi project questions like:
1) When Borland will be sold to (Microsoft, IBM,
etc. ...)
2) How long Borland going to support/develop Delphi.
3) What if Borland get broke...
coming up.
If Borland's intention is to make Delphi working
horse of programming industry - roadmap should be at
least to 2015, with clear path on how legacy code
will be supported in future.
It's not bugs in IDE which hurt Delphi's future,
it's luck of good reputation as a reliable
development tool for corporate projects (not small
applications for hobbist).
Comment by Vlad on October 6, 17:21
Delphi in the Trenches?
Marco,
I totally agree with you, very nice post.
Some more points:
1) Microsoft C#/Net technology is an obvious copy of
Delphi/VCL framework philosophy (Anders did a very
good job of implementing VCL-like framework into a
whole system level framework and Delphi-like new
language - C# )
2) Microsoft is LOOSING money with VS (but making with
other software - Office + Windows) - btw they loose
money with XBox too (over 4 Billions $ until now )
3) Borland is MAKING money with Delphi
4) Microsoft DOES NOT have clear, supported path from
old to new tools (VB32>..?) forcing MILLIONS of their
users to leave years of knowledge investment in place
of totally new language (VB.Net)
5) Borland DID a better job with MUCH LESS resources
then Microsoft and offered a FULL COMPATIBLE (D1->D9),
modern (W32,.Net, Linux) and very advanced tool
(refactorings, modeling, intraweb, ECO,...)
So why would someone invest in a tools from a company
like Microsoft (VS is not company's return of
investment so it cannot be one of primary objectives
for MS) if not because of their MARKETING BASED
QUALITY (not even ONE single piece of software is the
SUPERIOR in its category - Windows, Office,VB...) and
MONEY made by monopolizing the market and destroying
eventual competitors by simply buying their tools or
resources (see 30-40 engineers taken away from Borland
during the years for example).
Cheers,
Boro
Comment by Boro on October 6, 18:46
Delphi in the Trenches?
Ciao Marco,
you made some good points in this post, all you said
it's true, but the ultimate question is: "Delphi is
worth its price now?"
In my opinion, from a heartless accountant
perspective, the competitors are not as good but they
have definitely a better price ($0 in some case).
It's not only about adding a entry-level delphi version.
Also the enterprise/architect version is really
overpriced considering ECO limits, compared to J2EE
for example.
Comment by Uberto on October 6, 19:14
Delphi in the Trenches?
Thanks for a carefully thought out summary, backing it
up with historical facts we so often forget. The last
sentence should be permanently attached to the bottom
of the Delphi Roadmap !
Comment by Joe Hendricks on October 6, 19:30
Delphi in the Trenches?
Thank you for a bit of good news. I agree with all
that you have said, and hope that Delphi can survive
the hype war...
You say you got rid of some of the heavy stuff to make
Delphi 2005 more stable. Could you elaborate? Are
there any good links on how to make it stable?
We have been working with it for a couple of months
now, and have been looking for ways to get it to stop
crashing daily, sometimes multiple times a day.
We have all the patches and the unofficial patches,
and have disabled Together support. What else do we
need to dump?
Comment by Raymond Jenkins on October 7, 18:21
Delphi in the Trenches?
Marco,
a fine blog. Agree with all, except this:
> If you think that there is nothing ouside of .NET,
> that 1.1 is so bad that migrating to 2.0 today is
> a must, that Microsoft is devoted to developers...
> than go ahead and switch to VS. But I don't buy it,
> sorry.
If you are developing for the .Net market, especially
the ASP.Net market, you cannot start a project based
on .Net 1.1 today, you must design it for 2.0. Same
applies to existing projects, they must soon support
2.0, and you need to plan for and experiment with such
things, now, not tomorrow.
Comment by Ingvar Nilsen
[http://www.ingvarius.com]
on October 8, 23:35
Delphi in the Trenches?
There is a discussion on blog entry in the Delphi
non-tech newsgroup. See (temporarily):
http://delphi.newswhat.com/geoxml/forumgetthread?groupname=borland.public.delphi.non-technical&messageid=4344a6d1$1@newsgroups.borland.com&displaymode=all
Comment by Marco Cantù
[http://www.marcocantu.com]
on October 11, 16:02
Delphi in the Trenches?
I think MS has an easy way to overcome feature
shortages.
My employee got FREE copies of VS and had to pay
2,000+ for a single copy of Delphi. I am the lone
voice and user of Delphi which is suites me fine.
However, from a management point of view it does
take an accountant to figure out which direction our
company will go.
Comment by RTollison on November 11, 07:09
Delphi in the Trenches?
Hi all,
Well i just wanna say that Delphi is like
hella' over priced, but we gotta agree that
like some1 said above, from D1->D9 all projects
are fully compatible and it will still be until DX
because that's the way Delphi's made :D and that's
why so many ppl buys&loves it.
Anyhu a student should benefit of some lower price
let's say price is 3.879$ me(as student) should be
able to pay let's say less than 1.000$ that would
be great 1 way for them they could get some less
taxes or something like that...and other way coz they
can suport students and make a good reputation, EM I
right?
Comment by DelphiFannatic
[]
on April 18, 21:20
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