October 6, 2005
Delphi in the Trenches?
There have been many posts following the release of the Delphi Roadmap (see the original slide here) and my post about the Delphi Passion... and although I don't want to start a debate I really want to tell you why I disagree with some of the posters, even though I can understand their point of view. For example, see this post by Eric.
If you think that there is nothing ouside of .NET, that 1.1 is so bad that migrating to 2.0 today is a must, that Microsoft is devoted to developers...than go ahead and switch to VS. But I don't buy it, sorry.
It is certainly true that MS has infinite more R&D resources than Borland. But this was true also when Borland did Delphi 1, when it did Turbo Pascal 1.0, when it made Sidekick or Quattro... This was true of Google, when it started. Consider, that not all MS R&D resource are oriented to developers and that .NET has a clear agenda: make users upgrade their OS version. Consider also that MS spends a fraction of the revenues on R&D, contrary to Borland!
I also question the need to be on the verge of technology. With most client/server development still on Win32 (and VB6, not Delphi!) I don't see the need to embrace the latest MS technology the same day it is released. Delphi 2 was almost a year behind Windows 95, which introduced Win32 to the masses. So what? Delphi developer were able to migrate Win16 to Win32 project faster than many others. Delphi COM support was so late (but so great). Delphi for .NET has been very late, was not an issue for me and most of the developes I know. .NET 2.0 support will come faster than those, and will come as the framework becomes solid and widespread (which is still not true for 1.0 and/or 1.1).
Another element I want to underline is that even though the release version of Delphi 2005 was very shaky, the product is now fully usable. I use it for Win32 / .NET / CF (thanks to Jeremy North) / Kylix (with CrossKylix or directly) development. It crashed once over the last couple of weeks (plus 2 times as I was working with Win32 class helpers at EKON!). I do have all patches, disabled the heavy stuff, and so on. But although there are issues with the OTA and in other areas saying the product is unusable is absolutely not true, at least for my experience.
So why use Delphi if you want crossplatform? You have Kylix still working OK for server side developent (this blog runs on Kylix) and Mono available if you pick .NET. I fully agree that an updated Kylix compiler will be a great thing. I don't see how VS or C# can be better!
Why use Delphi in general? It provides more options and more flexibility than the current MS offering. For example, you have ECO, better support for non-MS databases (you know, there are some out there), both VCL and WinForms, ASP.NET and also other Web technologies: you indeed have more options! The other obvious reason is Win32 support. It is and will be relevant for some years ahead. Killing it because you have a OS agenda is not the developer's and user's best interest, IMHO.
Finally, I totally disagree with the claim that the Delphi language has been "decimated" or "hacked" for .NET compatibility. On the contrary, Borland has done an excellent and unparalled job in adopting the new paradigm while maintaining a clean and highly compatible language. I don't see anyone else offering the same.
My impression is that Delphi is not the trenches, is not "years behind", provides some distinctive advantages over the competition, is even leading in .NET on some language features (virtual constructors, to single out one I really like and would miss in C#), and is more open to developer's needs. Having said this... I'm ducking in my trench, ready for a flow of bullets, ahem, critical posts...
16 Comments
Delphi in the Trenches?
I for agree with Marco. Delphi is not behind but very much with it. Not everything is .NET and not all customers are running beta versions of Vista. Win32 still plays an important roll. As a matter of fact, I wrote an ISAPI filter using Delphi for a customer last month. I for one am very happy with the Delphi Roadmap, and it is right on target for my needs and the needs of my customers. As for the stability of Delphi 2005, I admit I had problems with it in the beginning but I've not experienced a crash with it in quiet some time. On the other hand, VS.NET 2003 crashed on me a few weeks ago when I tried compiling a string constant in C# code. See my blog for the details (http://www.thecave.com/archive/2005/09/19/discovered_constant_bug_in_vsnet_2003.aspx). Note the same C# code that crashes VS.NET 2003 does NOT crash the Delphi IDE.Comment by Kirby Turner [http://www.thecave.com] on October 6, 02:40
Delphi in the Trenches?
Well this will not be a bullet against you, but a brother in arms. Options is the key, being the only development tool in the .Net and now win32 world out of MS give us a very strategic position to deal with other technologies (databases: ORACLE, frameworks: Java COM interoperability: Win32 using .Net, etc.). What don't like ASP.Net, need to do something the RAD way check Intraweb, like UML? TOGETHER, want some ECO? The list keeps growing, Delphi is in a better position than before, we can pick what to offer went to offer, MS needs to fight too many fronts, and it is trying to cover many fronts at once. We will see the results of this. Cheers comrad, bring them on! :)Comment by Esteban Pacheco [http://estebanp.blogspot.com] on October 6, 05:15
Best Delphi Blog Post Ever
Marco, a level headed, well reasoned, extremely accurate, realistic assessment of the IDE and development situation. Bravo!!!Comment by Kyle A. Miller [http://www.millerdevelopment.info] on October 6, 07:22
Delphi in the Trenches?
I agree with most of your points of view. However, there seems to be a few Delphi releases we could have managed without. Delphi 4 was one of them, and Delphi 2005 seems to be the other. Borland will someday kill Delphi if they keep rushing immature products to the market. At the moment Delphi 7 and CrossKylix keeps me happy while waiting for yet another Delphi 2005 patch. By the way, thanks for your excellent Mastering Delphi series.Comment by henry-ri@online.no [] on October 6, 10:06
Delphi in the Trenches?
This discussion with VS Developers has been there since VB3 and Delphi 1. Many of the VS Developers I have known, laught about Delphi, and claim that VS is the best Developer Platform in the Market. But do you know why they decide to Develop with VS ?, not because it is better, just because MS is behind the product, they feel secure as MS is a strong company. But when we have to talk about facts, then they mouths keep shut. Once I showed one of these VS developers a little bit Delphi. He got shocked with the TTable and the Fields Editor... :-)) "So easy is this with Delphi?" he asked. :-))Comment by Albert Research [http://albertresearch.blogspot.com] on October 6, 11:41
Delphi in the Trenches?
> It provides more options and more flexibility than the current MS offering. This is the crux of it. All other points aside, Borland and Delphi give me more options to do things on my terms, and that makes them the absolute best business decision. At least for me. I'm not bashing Microsoft or .Net. I've used VS2003 and am using VS2005 now (some pretty snazzy stuff in there). At best, they're still only partial solutions. I'm also not blindly praising Borland. They really need to get their collective act together, which I think they are. They are still the best bang for my buck. By far. Great post.Comment by Bruce McGee on October 6, 14:54
Delphi in the Trenches?
Marco, don't you think, that main problem of Delphi is Borland's heritage as dying company? Every time I'm talking about new Delphi project questions like: 1) When Borland will be sold to (Microsoft, IBM, etc. ...) 2) How long Borland going to support/develop Delphi. 3) What if Borland get broke... coming up. If Borland's intention is to make Delphi working horse of programming industry - roadmap should be at least to 2015, with clear path on how legacy code will be supported in future. It's not bugs in IDE which hurt Delphi's future, it's luck of good reputation as a reliable development tool for corporate projects (not small applications for hobbist).Comment by Vlad on October 6, 17:21
Delphi in the Trenches?
Marco, I totally agree with you, very nice post. Some more points: 1) Microsoft C#/Net technology is an obvious copy of Delphi/VCL framework philosophy (Anders did a very good job of implementing VCL-like framework into a whole system level framework and Delphi-like new language - C# ) 2) Microsoft is LOOSING money with VS (but making with other software - Office + Windows) - btw they loose money with XBox too (over 4 Billions $ until now ) 3) Borland is MAKING money with Delphi 4) Microsoft DOES NOT have clear, supported path from old to new tools (VB32>..?) forcing MILLIONS of their users to leave years of knowledge investment in place of totally new language (VB.Net) 5) Borland DID a better job with MUCH LESS resources then Microsoft and offered a FULL COMPATIBLE (D1->D9), modern (W32,.Net, Linux) and very advanced tool (refactorings, modeling, intraweb, ECO,...) So why would someone invest in a tools from a company like Microsoft (VS is not company's return of investment so it cannot be one of primary objectives for MS) if not because of their MARKETING BASED QUALITY (not even ONE single piece of software is the SUPERIOR in its category - Windows, Office,VB...) and MONEY made by monopolizing the market and destroying eventual competitors by simply buying their tools or resources (see 30-40 engineers taken away from Borland during the years for example). Cheers, BoroComment by Boro on October 6, 18:46
Delphi in the Trenches?
Ciao Marco, you made some good points in this post, all you said it's true, but the ultimate question is: "Delphi is worth its price now?" In my opinion, from a heartless accountant perspective, the competitors are not as good but they have definitely a better price ($0 in some case). It's not only about adding a entry-level delphi version. Also the enterprise/architect version is really overpriced considering ECO limits, compared to J2EE for example.Comment by Uberto on October 6, 19:14
Delphi in the Trenches?
Thanks for a carefully thought out summary, backing it up with historical facts we so often forget. The last sentence should be permanently attached to the bottom of the Delphi Roadmap !Comment by Joe Hendricks on October 6, 19:30
Delphi in the Trenches?
Thank you for a bit of good news. I agree with all that you have said, and hope that Delphi can survive the hype war... You say you got rid of some of the heavy stuff to make Delphi 2005 more stable. Could you elaborate? Are there any good links on how to make it stable? We have been working with it for a couple of months now, and have been looking for ways to get it to stop crashing daily, sometimes multiple times a day. We have all the patches and the unofficial patches, and have disabled Together support. What else do we need to dump?Comment by Raymond Jenkins on October 7, 18:21
Delphi in the Trenches?
Marco, a fine blog. Agree with all, except this: > If you think that there is nothing ouside of .NET, > that 1.1 is so bad that migrating to 2.0 today is > a must, that Microsoft is devoted to developers... > than go ahead and switch to VS. But I don't buy it, > sorry. If you are developing for the .Net market, especially the ASP.Net market, you cannot start a project based on .Net 1.1 today, you must design it for 2.0. Same applies to existing projects, they must soon support 2.0, and you need to plan for and experiment with such things, now, not tomorrow.Comment by Ingvar Nilsen [http://www.ingvarius.com] on October 8, 23:35
Delphi in the Trenches?
There is a discussion on blog entry in the Delphi non-tech newsgroup. See (temporarily): http://delphi.newswhat.com/geoxml/forumgetthread?groupname=borland.public.delphi.non-technical&messageid=4344a6d1$1@newsgroups.borland.com&displaymode=allComment by Marco Cantù [http://www.marcocantu.com] on October 11, 16:02
Delphi in the Trenches?
I think MS has an easy way to overcome feature shortages. My employee got FREE copies of VS and had to pay 2,000+ for a single copy of Delphi. I am the lone voice and user of Delphi which is suites me fine. However, from a management point of view it does take an accountant to figure out which direction our company will go.Comment by RTollison on November 11, 07:09
Delphi in the Trenches?
Hi all, Well i just wanna say that Delphi is like hella' over priced, but we gotta agree that like some1 said above, from D1->D9 all projects are fully compatible and it will still be until DX because that's the way Delphi's made :D and that's why so many ppl buys&loves it. Anyhu a student should benefit of some lower price let's say price is 3.879$ me(as student) should be able to pay let's say less than 1.000$ that would be great 1 way for them they could get some less taxes or something like that...and other way coz they can suport students and make a good reputation, EM I right?Comment by DelphiFannatic [] on April 18, 21:20
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Delphi in the Trenches?
Comment by BTX on October 6, 02:30