Marco Tech Blog

July 3, 2008

Delphi .NET Plans (by Michael Swindell)

In a comment left on my blog yesterday, the head of Embarcadero product management provides relevant insights on the future of Delphi .NET. This is great news!

posted by marcocantu @ 12:53AM | 27 Comments [0 Pending]

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

"and more support for other .NET frameworks beyond 
just Winforms and ASP.NET ie WPF, Silverlight, Open 
source and others - in the .NET tools."

As I read this (i am not native englisch speaker, so 
I might be wrong) one could conclude that there might 
be chance that Winforms (and beyond) is coming back 
to Delphi??

Well that would be great for my Winforms Delphi.NET 
apps.

Comment by Roland [http://beensoft.blogspot.com] on July 3, 13:08

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

They should concentrate on a working F1 Help file. I
miss that beyond Delphi 7. 

Comment by Peter on July 3, 14:11

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

Because I always keep an eye on RemObjects'
Chrome/Oxygen, I am worried about this news if
CodeGear/Embarcadero wants to clone (may be RO clones
Delphi at first) that in the near future. I wish both
RO and CG can cooperate to promote Object Pascal for
.NET some day.  

Comment by Lex Y. Li [http://lextm.cn] on July 3, 15:23

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

Yeah! Goood News! .NET rocks!

Comment by Ralf Grenzing on July 3, 16:10

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

Now, I love Embarcadero (^^)

Comment by HardOrc on July 3, 16:53

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

What about Turbo Delphi line?

Comment by Student on July 3, 16:55

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

oh no!  the delphi.net resurface again!!!  

if not mistaken, this is on of the main reason why all
of delphi loyal users have turned away to the
different product.

Comment by ahmoy on July 3, 19:27

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

Cogegear is starting to lose focus again. Thay what 
to put everything into Delphi. This is IMPOSSIBLE !!!

Well, some people have Delphi .NET projects. I do not 
think that those are big projects. They should better 
migrate them to C# and .NET

I am working on a BIG native Delphi project. We still 
using Delphi 6. We are earning a pile of cash with 
that project so we can pay for better Delphi. BUT I 
do not like Delphi .NET and bloated Delphi 2007.

The best technologies comes from third party Delphi 
components. We do not use DBExpress and we do not use 
ECO. We use third party components for database 
conectivity based on TDataset and third party 
components for data visualisation because TDBGrid in 
Delphi is not good enough.

I think that CodeGear should focus on improving on 
their base technologies instead of traing to win new 
markets like Delphi for PHP or Delphi for AS400 or 
Delphi .NET

Comment by Simon on July 4, 11:33

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

 "So we have been working on a more aggressive .NET 
approach that focuses less on being a .NET clone of 
the native Delphi implementation and more of an open 
approach that will make more frameworks, platforms, 
and features available and in a more timely manner."

Wonderful news for me! Individual priorities may 
vary, but my personal ones are looking for WPF 
support in Delphi. 

And, generally, there should be a more open approach 
for using different .NET frameworks in our Delphi 
applications. Perhaps based on reflection etc.?

Comment by mikeg on July 4, 11:48

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

And Win32 I hope will not throw?

Comment by Win32 user on July 4, 13:46

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

I'm with Student... will the Turbo Explorer or Turbo
Delphi lines be kept or are all of us hobbyists stuck
with the 2006 version for the next (checks his
license) 35941 days (or forced to pay hundreds of
dollars for the "PRO" version of Delphi)?

Comment by Concerned hobbyist on July 4, 18:30

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

 Hi Marco, thanks to add this article.

this bring up new hope to the .net roadmap. you know i
love the asp.net stuff and work a lot of with delphi
2007 and asp.net projects. so we can hope for new big
steps. GREAT NEWS! GREAT EMBARCADERO!

;-) Daniel (Magin)

Comment by Daniel Magin [http://www.danielmagin.de] on July 4, 22:52

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

@Concerned hobbyst: what do you need so badly that's 
in D2007 but not in D2006? I know real hobbyists (and 
not only) who deliver wonderful applications with 
much older versions. Is it just the "I need the last 
release" syndrome? Or something "worse"?

Well, IMHO Swindell plans has some good points 
(forget compatibility, focus .NET efforts where .NET 
plays well) and some still bad ones (.NET is not a 
multiplatform solution, forget Mono - is just dust in 
the eyes, instead focus on Java, PHP, etc. which are 
*real* multiplatform solutions with strong support).

Good to know that native compilers are going to 
deserve those attentions they need. Just one 
suggestion for Mr. Swindell: servers are not 
only "web servers" <g>. There are people that write 
native applications that run on the server side. 
Don't think only about "packaged/desktop/workstation" 
applications - they often today commumicate with some 
kind of server - thereby don't forget the needs of 
server native applications and the communication 
layer, please.

Comment by Luigi D. Sandon on July 5, 00:43

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

 This is the best news that i have heard in a long 
time.
I bought D8 mainly for ECO & delphi & was throughly 
disappointed.
How ever the qulaity improved considerably & my 
knowlegde of ECO also went up considerably.
I consider ECO + asp.net+Delphi .net cutting edge.
Now i am able to make Delphi eco asp.net projects in 
a matter of hours (i am a single developer).I was 
worried what would happen with the new entity(though 
RS 2007 is more than adequate for my needs)
Now I can rest easy that i can stick with Delphi.
The aim should be to get back all those C# guys back 
into Delphi fold.

Comment by VT Venkatesh on July 5, 10:10

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

 Hi Marco 
can we expect some Delphi .net (& ECO ) books from 
you now?

Comment by VT Venkatesh on July 5, 10:20

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

Dear Concerned Hobbyist, you have as much as admitted 
that you have no intention of paying any money to 
Codegear for the next 30,000+ days. And yet you have 
concerns that Codegear is not looking after you 
properly. Get real!

Comment by moi! on July 6, 23:38

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

Who cares about .NET?

If I wanted to develop software for the .NET 
Framework, I would just switch to VB.NET or C#.

Delphi is the best option on the market for the 
development of native software.

.NET belongs to MS and no other software house can 
compare to them in that field.

I'm not sure .NET is the way to go. The most 
important innovation .NET can offer is the use of 
byte code instead of (COM) native code. Nevertheless, 
byte code has its pros and cons.

One of the advantages is that it allows you to 
develop desktop and Web-based software using more or 
less the same code. One of the disadvantages is that 
byte code is tremendously easy to crack or even 
reverse-engineer. Consequently, if you develop 
desktop programs for the general public, .NET may not 
be the ideal tool to use.

Most Delphi developers couldn't care less about byte 
code, otherwise they would have switched to Java a 
long time ago.

The second important issue is the "Framework hell" 
that makes application deployment an enormous 
headache.

I have installed the Express Edition of VB 2008 on my 
computer and played around with it. The IDE is just 
great, the tools you have at your disposal are so 
many that they make you feel strong. I would love to 
develop my new commercial software in .NET. 
Unfortunately, I have conducted a personal survey 
among my customers (a few hundred users) and found 
that the majority of them do not have the Framework 
on their machines. So, I have decided to put off the 
idea of embracing the .NET technology to a better 
future.

The size of the latest version of the .NET Framework 
has increased to 197 MB. Needless to say, considering 
that no version of Windows (Vista included) is 
shipped with .NET Framework 3.5, it would be suicidal 
for me to produce my shareware in .NET.

There's still a huge need for native software in the 
world and that's what Delphi should aim at.

Comment by Pasquale Esposito [http://www.espositosoftware.it] on July 7, 00:11

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

The mere fact that .Net has a differently structured
library means you end up approaching the same problem
in different ways. Even garbage collection changes the
way I structure code! Code compatibility between
Delphi Win32 and .Net is the least of the problems.

MS recognized this problem with Visual Basic years
ago. At every conference I went to, I asked about VB6
and VB.Net compatibility, and we were shocked when
every time, the Microsoftie up front would say,
"Rewrite the lot."

If you want to use .Net, use C#. Even on parallel
developments (and how big is the market for those?)

Comment by delfi phan on July 7, 11:31

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

Perhaps it's time to stand back and think about what
used to make Delphi unique, and translate that to the
.Net world.

It's true that backwards compatibility and forward
migration paths are important, but I believe it's time
to realize that .Net isn't just a new version of
Win32. It's a completely different platform, almost as
different from Win32 as PHP or Java. So, Delphi for
.Net shouldn't be considered a new version of Delphi
for Win32, but a completely different product, just
like Delphi for PHP and JBuilder.

As things stand right now, I will be using ECO + VS/C#
for those applications where .Net is good/OK, and
probably Delphi for Win32 for stuff where .Net isn't
suitable. I just wish I could use ECO or an *updated*
Bold for Delphi with Delphi for Win32.

Comment by Kjell Rilbe [] on July 8, 00:20

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

 .NET, .NET, .NET, I understand that the blog I'm 
posting commenting about is about .NET and not about 
native Delphi.

I've been with Delphi since almost the beginning 
(1995).  And I must say that I've always loved and 
stood up for the language.  If I weren't stuck in 
Minneapolis, i'd probably work for you guys, because 
I've done plenty of cheerleading for you over the 
years.  I've built massive web apps in Delphi that to 
this day still dish out 2-3 million hits every day.  
I also sell one of the scalable multithreaded memory 
managers for Delphi.  The simple fact that you can 
hook into and replace GetMem, FreeMem, and ReallocMem 
makes Delphi stand out among its peers even today, 
and makes me trust it for mission critical 
applications.  It is hands-down the BEST for native 
code, particularly when the coe has to be fast and 
scalable.  

But I can say is that there is no way on earth I 
could ever possibly convince the higherups to favor 
writing .NET code in Delphi as opposed to C#.  They 
would go for Mono before they'd go for Delphi. When 
you guys lose focus on catering to your core customer 
base by building incomplete, wildly experimental 
products, your core customer base starts to lose 
faith and eventually even the most die-hard delphi 
fan has to concede that there's no future for Delphi.

Microsoft is pushing .NET 3.5 and if you plan to 
compete with them, you need Delphi for .NET 3.5 right 
NOW.  You also need compact framework support and to 
integrate the Delphi language with Mono.

If you can't decicate enough resources to making that 
happen, then you need to focus on your core niche 
which has been neglected over the years: Native 
Delphi.

But since you've lost focus, even Native Delphi is 
missing quite a few things right now:

1. Still no support for Parameterized types.  This 
should have happened at least 3 years ago.

2. Still no 64-bit support.

3. Optional garbage collection for objects would 
streamline the development process.  After working in 
C# for a year, I realized how much time I spend in 
Delphi typing TRY ... FINALLY over and over and 
over.  Look at Managed C++ and how they did it, 
classes can be garbage collected or not... your 
choice.  You're really almost there.  You can make 
something act like a GCed class if you just access it 
by its Interface, but then you've got duplicate 
headers all over the place, ugly.  

3.5. It would be nice to be able to access an object 
by its interface without having to worry so much 
about interface reference counting.  I made a mess a 
while back trying to reliably manage the lifetimes of 
persistent interfaced objects.  Ever try to add an 
interface to a TButton?  Have fun with that one!

4. C# is less restrictive with regard to circular 
references, maybe Delphi should be too.

5. A more complete implementation of operator 
overloading.

6. A naughty word: Macros.  They make a mess of 
things, but sometimes, they get it done.

7. Delphi's Code insight doesn't quite stand up to 
microsoft's Intellisense.  Intellisense can reduce 
the number keystrokes I need to build a class down to 
1/4th it seems.  Programming in delphi feels 
repetitive, especially when the lack of parameterized 
types and garbage collection make basic coding tasks 
more long-winded than C#.

8. Lack of Vista support, I know you said you 
implemented it, but you really didn't.  I have a blog 
post that rips it to shreds.  Practically none of the 
VCL controls work on a glass enabled form.  A full 
GDI+ forms conversion is needed.

9. Networking features have been neglected.  Indy 
just doesn't stack up to System.Net.Sockets.  I have 
to use a 3rd party library for basic necessities such 
as cryptology, MD5 Hashing, etc.  These things come 
for free in PHP and everywhere else.

I wish the best for you, and I hope you can get it 
all together.  I'm rooting for you over here.  But I 
need to see new language features more than anything.

Comment by Jason Nelson [http://blog.digitaltundra.com] on July 8, 20:08

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

I have to be careful what I say because I'm not in
Jason Nelson's league, but:

> 3. Optional garbage collection for objects would 
streamline the development process.  

Having read and heard from many places that garbage
collection is NOT trivial to implement, I am terrified
of a buggy implementation in Delphi Win32. I can live
with try..finally. I can see where things get removed.
The "optimization" switch is bad enough.

> After working in C# for a year, 

C# does many detailed things more elegantly than
Delphi (2007). What is important is not the esoteric
stuff, to me it's the day-to-day tools that make my
programmer's life easy.

> 4. C# is less restrictive with regard to circular 
references, maybe Delphi should be too.

Just as Delphi's interface/implementation concept was
an improvement on separate .h/.c (.cpp) files, I find
the way C# requires no declaration section at all is
one of those small things that makes a programmer's
life really much easier.

> 5. A more complete implementation of operator 
overloading.

OPERATOR overloading? Do I understand you right; as in
"*" does something else, depending on classes? This
would be an example of esoterics that I'd use rarely.
I'd sooner write MyMatrix.Multiply(MyOtherMatrix).

> 6. A naughty word: Macros.  They make a mess of 
things, but sometimes, they get it done.

Indeed. Absolutely agree, after I had to move some
well-written C code some years ago, my eyes were
opened. Difficult to explain to people that have never
been there.

> 7. Delphi's Code insight doesn't quite stand up to 
microsoft's Intellisense.  Intellisense can reduce 
the number keystrokes...

Right. Again, it's the elegant, unintrusive tools that
make programming faster. The equivalents in Delphi are
not as smooth in practice.

Two things I'd like to add:

A) I cannot understand how the documentation for D2007
became so poor. In D5, the paper docs were also
available in .pdf format, so why can these not be
simply updated? Even with the latest Help update, I
could not find even simple things, like how to use
"mod" and "div". What happened to the Language
Reference? Surely it's easy just to update it? The
poor quality of the documentation is the main reason I
cannot honestly recommend D2007 to friends and
colleagues. I would be inundated with trivial
questions on it's most basic use.

B) The only reason I still use Delphi is because there
is no realistic alternative for Win32 projects. For
this reason alone, I really, really hope and pray we
get a Tiburon that's solid and industrial grade.

Comment by delfi phan on July 9, 18:59

Delphi .NET Plans <> Less Win32 

I think it's very important to note that this next 
step in .NET strategy will not have a negative impact 
on Win32 Delphi. In fact exactly the opposite, native 
Delphi will go forward faster and very much in the 
core spirit of Delphi - with a greater focus on 
native speed, language, VCL/GUI, and database. 

Comment by Michael Swindell on July 10, 11:17

server <> web servers 

Great point Luigi. Keep an eye out for the upcoming 
Datasnap in Tiburon. Building native server based 
apps and middleware (not just db middletiers) in 
Delphi is going to get very powerful and very 
flexible and very easy. 

Comment by Michael Swindell on July 10, 11:22

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

Hope this step in .NET strategy will not have a 
negative impact on Win32 Delphi. 

Comment by mailer@trial.com on July 16, 07:53

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

@ moi! - You read waaaay to much into my post that
really wasn't there. Yes, I'm using the freebie
version, why? It does what I need it to do. The PRO
version would be massive over-kill for me. Would I buy
the Turbo Delphi line if they released a new version
of it? You bet I would... provided it wasn't too
expensive (say $150-$250). My concern is that there
will not be a cheaper version to purchase than PRO.

Comment by Concerned hobbyist on July 18, 03:46

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

Seems like Delphi RAD already lost the battle with
Microsoft.

VS2008 Pro+MSDN Premium cost around 2500$. With
cutting edge technologies support, proper
documentation etc. With army of coders and millions of
forums and blogs, with huge collection of free and
commercial components etc.

What we getting in CG RAd Studio 2007 Box? For about
4000$ you'll get obsolete IDE, buggy debugger and
incomplete documentation. Don't even dream about
documentation - really few books and tiny amount of
blogs and forums.

Guys give us a break! CG Rad Studio should cost no
more that few hundreds for all the "features".

P.S. I use to like Delphi and still using for Win32
projects, because its simple straightforward and
quick. And after years of coding in Delphi have to
move to VS2008(C# mostly).

P.P.S. ECO is good addon but its available for VS too.

Comment by LEX on August 10, 22:07

Delphi .NET Plans by Michael Swindell 

Embarcadero will cut loose ECO (Nick Hodges quote)  
Where does that leave us poor buggers who use it with 
Delphi?

Comment by aussie on September 5, 07:25