March 29, 2006
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
MSDN has an interesting page with information for Delphi users. Some interesting... some totally misleading.
This morning I got in my mail a Google Alert with a link to an MSDN page providing Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers. Needless to say this is meant to suggest developers to switch to Visual Studio, but there is interesting information in the page.
For example, the first question (1) relates to running existing Delphi Win32 applications on future versions of Windows. Well, the question wording in more subtle and doesn't mention Win32, but this is what they mean. Microsoft response is that "both COM and the .NET Framework are supported parts of the overall Windows platform and will be supported for the foreseeable future, ensuring your Borland Delphi applications continue to operate". Odd they mention COM many times and never Win32. Or maybe they fear VB developers will switch back?
In the same first question they (implicitly) mention that Delphi Win32 programmers (as any other programmers not using Microsoft tools but "using any tool they choose") as developers with "creativity and ingenuity". You sure? Is that only because they don't trust MS marketing?
In question 3, MS suggests developers using "Borland Delphi to build data driven Windows applications rapidly" to switch to Visual Basic (for .NET), claiming that "Visual Basic is the right language". Well, first it doesn't support Win32, so it doesn't address all developers needs. Second, I see more Delphi developers switching to C#, if they have/choose to use Visual Studio.
They go on promoting their new team support (ALM) capabilities, suggesting Borland C++ Builder developers to move to Visual C++ (with zero code compatibility, they fail to notice). Then comes an interesting question (7):"I used the Java language support within Borland Delphi, is there anything Microsoft offers here?" This is very interesting. I wasn't aware JBuilder was part of Delphi, or it is not? The anser is odd anyway, as MS claims they support a "Java language environment" with a tool that doens't target "Sun Java Runtime".
If you also heard that "MS offers tools for building applications on mobile devices", they certainly haven't heard that Delphi 2006 has some support for them as well, even if limited. The final question is about Anders Hejlsberg, and MS sort of implies he moved on from Delphi to newer stuff (a "language known as C#") and develoeprs should follow him. Of course they don't realize how much of the Delphi approach is there in :NET and so how good Delphi is to build .NET applications... but that's a different story.
39 Comments
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
it was quite funny that they mention that Visual Basic is the right language about the Java part, I wasn't aware it was part of Delphi either, but I've heard very good things about it, it seems you have to make little to no changes from a java project that runs on the Sun Java Runtime, to run on the .NET framework with J#, but don't take my word for it on the other hand... seems MS finally heard about Borland going out of the IDE businessComment by Eber Irigoyen [http://ebersys.blogspot.com] on March 29, 19:09
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
One more time.. the Delphi war! I have BDS2006, I'm freelance, I spent a lot of money (really, so many money) since Delphi 3... and I have a lot of (really, so many many...) lines of code, forms, windows, compos, third party compos (oh! I have paid another big sum of money).... and have customers running win32 apps.. so...in this real everyday coding scenary: How I could swith to anything else?????? simply imposible. No time to master (no learn, master!) C# at the level necesary for diary work... no time to learn .net at master level, no money for buy again all the tools.. and a lot of projects running...and modifying every day. So.. the only thing that I hope is that Devco don't be a dark side of Microsoft, because I'm owned by Delphi. ;) Regards.Comment by freelanceBDS on March 29, 20:33
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
? if you want to move on with the next releases of windows and technology in general (even in Delphi) you will still have to *master* .NETComment by Eber Irigoyen [http://ebersys.blogspot.com/] on March 30, 09:56
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
to SI: there is a Pascal plugin for Visual Studio called Chrome, take a look at http://www.chromesville.com/Comment by Ralf Grenzing on March 30, 12:12
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
(Mmmm, language wars, yummy!) Yes, I'm amazed at how amateurish this seems to be. Marco, I know we could do better. But why bother? As others have said, anyone that's done any serious applications with Delphi doesn't need to switch, as they'll have too much investment in code. More relevant (and useful) would be an in-depth comparison of the more advanced features for those that are about to choose a new tool for a new project. The main area that BDS (currently) loses out on here is support for .NET 2.0. As a generalization, the other big-ticket features in Visual Studio haven't really been properly thought out for developers that work in the real world. I mean, does anyone today really seperate development from testing?Comment by Jeremy McGee [http://www.bassettdata.com] on March 30, 12:53
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
I used VS2005 beta and it was very good. C# as a language is also very nice, but I had a lot of trouble writing(I should say converting the application I had in Delphi to C#). The out of box controls don't do a good job. You need to buy 3rd part controls, which I think is not good as I like to stay away from 3rd party controls. Data access stuff is still not as good as Delphi, here again one has to look for 3rd part tools. IMO VS2005 is a good IDE but the controls required to write a database application are not good enough(I mostly write database applications). Delphi has had more than 10 years to mature and come to a stage where it is now. I think Dotnet framework will eventually (I hope) become as good as Delphi, but it will take time. SandeepComment by Sandeep Chandra on March 30, 14:01
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
"if you want to move on with the next releases of windows and technology in general (even in Delphi) you will still have to *master* .NET" Who said it? It looks MS itself isn't using .NET much in Vista - why should I? And about "technology in general", .NET is only one technology, one among many others. There are many others, never heard of Java, for example? :) I have to master technologies useful for my applications, not for MS revenues.Comment by on March 30, 14:16
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
VS is a good IDE? Maybe, there aren't many around now to compare..., its visual designer is horrible, anyway. Object Pascal within VS? What's for? One would lose VCL and all the other stuff that made - and still makes - Delphi great. Just to use VS IDE? I don't sell the IDE to my customers... I sell them applications and I need them to be better than competitors - something that Delphi let me to do till now. Hope it will be able to do it in the future.Comment by Luigi D. Sandon on March 30, 14:20
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
I personally find the Delphi IDE better than Visual Studio. I know it's my preference, but I keep hearing people say that the VS environment is better ans that's why they switched and never looked back. Well, I guess if you didn't switch and looked back, then you think the Delphi IDE is better for you.Comment by Phillip Woon on March 30, 17:05
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
MS seems to have more or less abandoned Win32 development, and for that Delphi is tough to beat anyways. IDE? Matter of preference, but VS 2005 does not do Win32 so that drives your choices down. .NET 2.0 support? VS 2005 is probably better (right now). Cost? Full Delphi versions have been too expensive for independents for a long time, in my opinion. Should Win32 developers learn .NET? Absolutely.Comment by Steve on March 30, 20:51
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
It's a good marketing strategy. One that I hope DevCo finally takes advantage of. Speaking of which, turnabout is fair play. :) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/29/AR2006032902155.htmlComment by Bruce McGee on March 30, 21:32
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Pascal was the first language I learned (in 1980) and I have a sort of strong relationship with it. I was using Visual Basic for last 5 years, so I tried Visual Studio .net. It is Ok also not as OK as Delphi. So the next move was Chrome. I had problem with Chrome - it dasn't integrate with VS as well as VB. All things summed up I would like to use Delhi and to have VB integrated inside Delphi IDE.Comment by Ludvik on March 31, 09:11
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Delphi has been my favourite IDE from 1996, but I moved to Visual Studio 3 years ago, and sincerely I don't miss it. Now if you consider: - tco - features - support - communities is still Delphi a choice? I think no.Comment by Zen on March 31, 13:04
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Apart from all these emotionals reasons to continue using a (propably dead) tool, or a tool that will always been behind, i know this: I give 270 dollars in Amazon for Visual Studio 2005 Standard. And i get full support of .net 2, an outstanding IDE, compact framework support, db support and a million other things. I wonder why i should go Delphi and pay a hell lot more money for something with obscure future, using a language (although was my favorite one) that is not a market standard and not stay in touch with current technolgies (we wan "play" NOW with C# 3 bits at the time Delphi has no support for v2.0 ...)Comment by guest on March 31, 15:01
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Re: "Guest's" assertion that Delphi has always been behind: Delphi *destroyed* VB when it came out. Delphi was *the* Win32 tool. Will Delphi become this tool again for .NET? Who knows. Converting from VS 2003 to VS 2005 apps has many pitfalls, and VS 2005 and MS's growth strategy is not perfect. For .NET, Delphi can be 6 months behind MS if their product is better, and costs the same. If not, it will probably not do well which would be criminal, as so much brains, work and loyalty have been around Delphi for so long.Comment by Steve on March 31, 17:42
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Mmmh, IMHO that page was written by some marketing guy who thinks Delphi is "Borland VB", made up using ActiveX and the like. That's why the emphasis on COM and VB.NET, I guess. I'm a bit surprised about all those guys who "switched to VS and never came back" reading this Delphi blog, anyway. Delphi "a tool that will always been behind"? If you're a .NET developer surely. That's why MS built .NET, to have a playground where they can be the frontrunner, after they failed in the others. Delphi has been far ahead, until Borland stopped real development. And yet .NET still have lots to learn. Are you a .NET developer? Delphi is the wrong choice. Are you a native code developer? Delphi is still a very good choice. High priced? Maybe a little. But we save on Office licenses using OpenOffice, so we can invest in Delphi, it paid out well till now.Comment by Kent Morwath on March 31, 17:48
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Could be written by an Ex Borland Marketing guy MikeComment by Michael on March 31, 23:31
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
MS is not so stupid to hire any Borland marketing guy... :)Comment by Luigi D. Sandon on April 3, 10:50
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
@ Steve: "Delphi destroyed VB" ?? I don't think so...It was indeed a better tool but it surely did not destroyed VB. Look at the saales figures, look at the jov positions and tell for yourself. @ Kent: "may be a little" overpriced ?? Come on now...Tha fact that Delphi was the best tool around cannot fool us from the facts. It's 3 times more expensive with a very unclear future. Period.Comment by guest on April 3, 12:12
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
"Guest": what does "overpriced" means? It's more expensive than VS. That's a fact. Is it overpriced - I think it wasn't, its price/feature ratio dropped lately, that's true - and we are understanding why. VS does not allow us to write native code but in C++. Our application *requires* native code, therefore all the .NET stuff is not for us. But again, until now it repaid well our investment, so what's the problem? I think MS Office is really overpriced, but people are still using it. Why? And anyway, whenever we will move to any p-code we probably move to Java. It is less expensive than VS... "Unclear future"? Right now it is. Hope it will be clarified soon, but right now I see no reason to run around shouting "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"Comment by Kent Morwath on April 3, 16:14
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Hmmmm... I must have missed something drastic along the line. Haven't you guys found out the one reason for running Delphi at all? It is all about PRODUCTIVITY !! It is the amount of time that: 1) It takes me to put together a solid, bug-free, functional solution for my customer 2) It takes me to change a working solution due to change requests from my customer. 3) It takes me to find those sorry logical bugs I put in the code without meaning to. 4) It takes my collegue to understand what the software I have done does. Also important is the professional presentation layer that my customer sees, where I have put in a minumim amount of time but still have made something I can be proud of. I don't put too much into the programming language (it's really not that hard to switch from one to the other, if you don't count VB to VB.NET which was an big jump). Only aspect on programming language is if it is fully object oriented, and how hard it is for one person to read someone else code. The reasone to use Delphi is also that: 1) I don't have to have relearn everything I know on a yearly basis. My projects do not have that extra time/money buffer, nor have my customers that kind of patience. 2) That I can do a .NET application, and probably as easily make a MS Vista or a .NET 2 application with only my knowledge of VCL. The rest of how that all is done is up to Borland/DevCo to work out for me. 3) That I don't have time to dig down in bits and bytes as soon as I have to do something that is not within the basic VisualStudio solution (compare doing a threaded socket server in Delphi using VCL and do the same in Visual Studio any version you want). 4) If I am forced to do some ground level research/implementation, I can go outside the VCL premade stuff, and reach inte windows (win32 or .NET) and do the things necessary. Sure you can think what you like about Microsoft. But .NET will probably rule the windows operating environment in an all to near future, so I have to have a running knowledge of it. Summary: Use Delphi for productivity, learn VCL, slowly but surely get a working knowledge of .NET. But do not let the .NET stop you from delivering solutions to your customer, nor bankrupting your company. If I could make a whish list for Xmas, it might include enable C# to make VCL and VCL.NET applications (that way I could persuade my C# collegues to switch to Delphi too). And that feature I've been waiting for so long, being able to undo changes when designing my forms. And if I have been a really nice boy this year, be able to program a short key for executing SQL code in the Database explorer (ie. hook key Ctrl+E for executing a SQL command). PS. Read on the web that Delphi really stands on three legs (think it was IDE, Pascal language, and VCL). Remove any one of those legs and the reason to use the product.Comment by Hopeful on April 3, 17:15
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
@ Kent: Except for the priced versions of VS.Net, there are also the Express ones. We are talking about first class products with zero (0) cost... We are talking about free Sql Servce Express, we are talking that an individual like me (or you) will have the tools to make quality commercial products without spending a penny... I do not know if MS Office is over priced, but i do know that people are using it because they know that the product is going to live forever. It is supported by a company with past,present and future and they do not havd to re-learn something else in the near (or not) future nor companies have to retrain their people to another product, that's why they are still buing it. And please, do not tell me about Java, if we are talking about Windows, it is the best joke i have heard...Comment by guest on April 3, 17:58
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Dear @Guest: Please buy an @spellChecker. Thanks, @SteveComment by Steve on April 4, 00:23
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
I will Steve, if it is too hard for you to see where the typos are, i will...Comment by Guest on April 4, 11:18
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Guest: would you use VS Express for any *serious* application? C'mon, let's stick on real developers and real applications, not script kiddies coding little apps after homeworks. SQL Server Express is not the only "free" database. There are a few without its limitations :) Ah, I forgot, if one goes VS it could use any database, as long as it is named "SQL Server". MS Office *is* overpriced, and is adding just some marginal features and new toolbars in new version, but noone complains. Future? More and more people are thinking about *open* formats to ensure their document will be readable in the future. Java on Windows? It works flawlessy, and it's not slower than .NET. It has a large number of good libraries available. And it has a fair better server development support than .NET, that beyond .aspnet and some web service support has nothing. But once again I'm talking about *real* applications.Comment by Kent Morwath on April 4, 11:54
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
"script kiddies coding little apps after homeworks." What ???? I ported a very serious app to C# Express at November and i work on it without ANY problem since then. I also ported all of my work here to Express (solutions with more that 200K lines of code totally) and i am still working fine. The only think i miss is the complete help system that the priced versions do have. At least, i am online here so it can search the online help so this is not a problem. Can i do this with (e.x) Delphi and keep the cost down ? Ah, i forgot, i cannot... "SQL Server Express is not the only "free" database" I aggree but if you already have an expertise on this, you simply do not have any reason to change. Yes, there are other free db as well, like MySQL. Ah, i forgot that they just introduced (!) stored procedure in the last edition... Sorry but i prefer the completenes and maturity of Sql Server that rely my company's valuable data on "free" products like this. "Java on Windows? It works flawlessy, and it's not slower than .NET." Come on, let's be serious. Java is not slower than .net on Windows ??? Even Gossling wouldn't say that...Comment by Guest on April 4, 14:20
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
"Guest" (on my forums real names are welcome, you know!), Kent, Steve and you all... I have to say the discussion thread prompted by this blog entry is interesting, but keep in mind you'll never convince each other! If you want to keep on debating I have no problem hosting your point of views (as long as there are no flames), but the more you can keep the discussion interesting to people reading it, the better. Again, feel free to go ahead... I didn't mean interrutping! I might blog more specifically on the issues raised (I do have my views), but don't want to start another IDE/language war just now.Comment by Marco Cantù [http://www.marcocantu.com] on April 4, 16:06
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Marco you are right, we fell in the trap and started the silly "languages war" game. I am not trying to convince anyone, i just have a view and i am sure that others have their too. I also would like to hear your "views" on the subject! ps: By the way, my name is Anthony.Comment by Anthony on April 4, 16:55
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Guest: an application "size" is not measured in lines of code only. A cheap "express" IDE is not for us, our needs go far beyond. Luckily, our budget for development tools is large enough to accomodate Delphi and other tools we need to develop and tune our applications - we need and use components, profilers and other tools (DevExpress, AQTime, InstallAware, etc.) - they are not free but are very well built and do exactly what we need. Again, they repay us well and are money well spent. If you are apps can "stay within" amateurish edition of tools, the better for you. "Yes, there are other free db as well, like MySQL. Ah, i forgot that they just introduced (!) stored procedure in the last edition..." Postgres and Firebird had them much earlier... when SQL Server had real triggers? Version 2000? And what about T-SQL? Worse than GW-BASIC. Anyway we use Oracle, because we need a really reliable and scalable database with high-end features like real clustering, partitioning, materialized views and other datawarehousing features. "Come on, let's be serious. Java is not slower than .net on Windows ?" I am serious. Give them enough RAM, and they are fast. But I forgot, I have not seen yet a "real" application written in .NET. But I am using several written in Java.Comment by Kent Morwath on April 5, 22:03
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Kent, there is no reason we continue this, don't you agree ? Use whatever IDE you like, use even JAVA that as you say it's no slower that .net in Windows (...) Personally i see Java as the most overhyped project that has failed miserably in the client size. All this hype all these years and the result is that people use it on the server only. (Maybe its is too slow, too memeoy-hog and too ugly to use it at the client...) I see that many peiople wear these anti-Microsoft glasses and they fail to see where the technology advantages are...Comment by Anthony on April 6, 12:21
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
"Personally I see .NET as the most overhyped project that has failed miserably on the client side. All this hype all these years and the result is that people use it on the server only" Fits perfectly, don't you agree :) What's different between .NET and Java? They are exactly the same. One is multilanguage, the other is multiplatform. Nothing more. "I see that many people wear these anti-Microsoft glasses and they fail to see where the technology advantages are..." Totally false. I have nothing against MS. It's we weight technology about advantages for us, not for soMeone elSe, we can't and don't follow marketing hype as a herd. I am still baffled by people like you: why are you reading and writing in a Delphi blog if you believe .NET is the "Second Coming"? 1) You're a MS marketing guy trying to spread FUD about Delphi and any non .NET technology, trying to exploit the difficult momento of Delphi. Hope so, at least you would be paid for it. 2) You're someone who believed the guy above, and after switching to .NET you are trying still to be reassured you've got the right way and didn't make a big mistake, that you are on the technology edge, etc. etc. trying to despise everything else in an attempt to persuade yourself. We don't go to VS or SQL Server blogs or newsgroup writing "why don't you use Eclipse? I rewrote my VB application in a week, and now it works on thirty- two different OSes faster and free. Why don't you use Firebird? It's free, I ported my SQL Server app to it in two days etc. etc."Comment by Kent Morwath on April 7, 00:49
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Kent, relax a little, will you ?? I was using Delphi before for some time, read a book of Marco and these are perfect reasons so to allow me to write to this blog. If you just cannot understand that, it's not my problem but yours, sorry... If you instist that .net and java "are exactly the same", then you should have very little knoledge for both. Maybe you should spend some time reading about .net and then (maybe) you will start to see that for Windows programming is simply better. To not knowing something well and still have a strong position for that, is at least funny... And yes, "I am still baffled by people like you", people who do not listen to other opinions, who do not see other people's views and trying to enforce theirs. So, go back to your Java IDE, fire it up and let me know in how many hours you have your window form open and waiting for you to code... Over and out.Comment by Anthony on April 7, 11:41
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
We've been using Delphi for eleven years, among us there are people who could *write* books about Delphi, and some of them wrote several articles about it on computer magazines and sites, therefore we well know its power. We know both Java and .NET very well. That's why we are not impressed by both. Is .NET better for Windows- only development? Sure. It was designed to be "MS Java for Windows". But is it an advantage or not? The world is not made up by expensive Windows software only, and Java performance are on par with .NET on Windows machines too. If you think they are not, I suggest you to try. We did. And if we have to go for a VM, we probably prefer to broaden our horizons, instead of being stuck in the MS Windows world. Nothing against MS, we just think it is better for our company. We always listent to other opinion. It's you that is trying to enforce your own view. You despise Java without any real knowledge of it, and prise .NET without any real knowledge of it. I am sure there is non "perfect language or technology" to be used for any development. Are small development tool like VS and SQL Express right for you? Ok. Is .NET the right framework for you? Ok. For many other people they aren't and can't be. And not because they are stupid people who like "obsolete or slow technology". Simply they have far different needs than you, and choose the technology that fits them. And I am really tired of small developers complaining Delphi is too expensive, those are developers who just want software for free. As long as Delphi is the core product of a company, it will be expensive compared to side products of companies like MS or IBM selling overpriced servers, office suites and operating systems. We sell applications, and we know the price of good software. We don't need a cheap IDE made to bring revenues by forcing user to buy other products from the same company. I really hope Delphi could strike back, its loss will be a huge step backward.Comment by Kent Morwath on April 7, 18:28
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
I must admit I use Delphi just for fun, and an occasional tool for a specific job at the small company I work for, so maybe I'm not really qualified to comment here, but: If 'guest' was a genuine VS developer, what's he even doing reading a Delphi blog? If 'Si' moved to VS 3 years ago and 'never looked back', what's he even doing reading a Delphi blog? Kent's MS Marketing guy comment seems pretty close to me.... there seems to be a lot of it about.Comment by Hector on April 27, 01:49
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Delphi, Visual Studio... Delphi the best win32 IDE, VS oriented for .NET. Any questions?Comment by sf, Russia [] on June 6, 22:36
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Please, no more...!! Go Delphi and Go DEVCO...Comment by Jose Castillo [http://josecastilloreyes.blogspot.com] on August 23, 22:47
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
I began to use pascal to learn data structure in middle school,and I like it very much.I think it to be the best develop tool.But the world changes so quickly,Delphi is much weaker than before.Honesty to say,I think delphi is also one of the best now,and I hope it to be much beeter and stronger.No competetion no development.Comment by Delphi users on April 27, 12:07
Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
I am a Delphi developer ever since Delphi 3.0, and now using BSD 2006. Recently I was tasked to join a team using VS2005; all of a sudden I felt very old looking at the code that I have to master. Learning VS2005 makes me go bald. For instance, with Delphi all I have to do to change a column value is to call that column's AsString method; i.e., ClientName.AsString := 'Peter Pan'; I'm still searching for the Visual Basic equivalent.Comment by BabyToy on June 9, 08:05
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Visual Studio Information for Borland Delphi Developers
Comment by Si [http://sourceforge.net/projects/dnfbb/] on March 29, 18:36